This week, I got a chance to chat with Joel Meyers about livestreaming, the college market, winning "Magician of the Year" and performing magic on television. I thoroughly enjoyed this interview, I think you will too. Enjoy!
"An Unexpected Delivery" with Joel Meyers
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Full Interview with Joel Meyers
As seen on Penn & Teller Fool Us, Wizard Wars, Masters of Illusion and more...
Ep 51 - Magician Joel Meyers
Magicians Talking Magic Podcast
Follow Joel Meyers: https://meyersmagic.com/
Interview with Joel Meyers Audio Transcript
Ryan Joyce: Live streaming is like clearly everywhere. And there's a lot of good and bad. I'd, I'd love to hear your thoughts on both you. You decide you want to start
Joel Meyers: the virtual platform is something that I'd never thought I would end up doing. I was always big into doing a, I wanted to do lots of television. And so I've been blessed that I've done quite a bit of television in the last four or five years. I don't know if you remember the show wizard Wars with that was the first show I did. And that was with, that was like Chris Ramsey and that was before Chris Ramsey was Chris Ramsey. And uh, you know, we were all rehearsing in front of each other and I was like, Chris, aren't you a closeup guy? Like you're killing it with the stage stuff and you're, you know, you're, uh, you know, he was, he was just, he was such a good performer. And then he was partnered up with spidey and I was with Nathan Kranz though. Um, and that was the first TV show I did. And so then I did a, you know, a bunch of other ones after that and uh, and now I do like masters and illusion every summer. And then there was a, uh, we're working on something else, uh, with Netflix right now that got halted production because of the Coronavirus stuff. But yeah, man. Yeah. So basically the, uh, you know, I had only been interested in doing television and you know, and touring and uh, uh, my doorbell just rang. It's probably a package. Ryan Joyce: Oh, do you want to do, we can stop it. Joel Meyers: No, no, it's all good. It's all good. I'm on like the third floor. I don't want to run all the way down there. Ryan Joyce: If it's the vanishing bandana, then this will be a whole new level. Joel Meyers: Exactly. That's, that's nice. Yeah. So, uh, um, so yeah, so I had never ever considered doing the virtual platform. Um, and so I didn't even really know how to do it when all of this stuff hit. I wasn't like, you know, I know you've been, cause I've watched enough of your stuff. Like I watched, you know, some of your things about like when you, you're behind the scenes look fool us, which was awesome by the way. Um, Ryan Joyce: yeah. Did try in the space dabbling in it here and there, but the live stream, it's really blossomed. Like now everybody's, I feel like you've got to have that as a solution on your site or you're not.
Joel Meyers: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I just didn't know how it was. What happened was once the pandemic kinda hit, I decided I was going, I was like, okay, I got, you know, we got to kind of adapt because my year this year was really good. I was doing a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of live touring more. Yeah. You know, how we kind of project whenever we're going to be touring and that kind of thing. And we look at, you know, nine months from now and we're like, Oh, we're good, you know, for all these months and my entire year. It was really good like that. And so when this stuff hit and all the dates and the theater shows and the cruises and everything's getting canceled, you know, I knew that I had to adapt. And so I quickly knew that the virtual platform was a way to do it. Um, and then now it's so funny because I just this month alone, I'm doing like 20 virtual shows. Um, Ryan Joyce: I saw on Instagram your, your event listing for April. It's wild, man. Everyone else is kinda lost gigs and it looks like you're, you're rocking them all. I was still, it's great. Tell us about some of this stuff you're doing. Joel Meyers: Yeah. So basically, um, what happened, I definitely lost gigs, you and, and just like everybody else and I was in the same boat as everybody else and it was really scary. Um, and I didn't know what was gonna happen. And so kind of what I did was I put my head together with my manager and my agent. And, um, you know, my main agent is a guy I've been with for like 10 years and he's a creative like me, and he always thinks outside of the box. Uh, he represented Justin Willman when Justin Willman, God has started, you know, he was his, his, uh, Justin, that was his first agent. That was his first client kind of thing. Um, and so he already knew how to work with like a magician, especially magician who does, you know, things kind of like, you know, on like the comedy in that personality, you know, side of things, which is like more like Justin and I, we're big into just our personalities and that's what gets us all of our bookings, really is our personalities. Um, and so a lot of magicians have called me and asked and they'd been like, are you, you know, are you just taking shows you already had booked and you're just doing those? Like, you know, and just changing it. That only happened with one show. Um, which is shocking, uh, you know, to, to think about, because all the other shows got deferred to a summer. I mean, at the fall, I'm sorry. Um, and so, cause a lot of these were colleges and so a lot of the colleges got moved to the, to the fall. Um, so really what this was, was this was immediately putting our heads together. Uh, we were at an APC, a conference, which is the association for the promotion campus activities. I was there with a bunch of other performers and magicians, a bunch of magicians, guys, you probably know Ryan Joyce: we were recently one too, didn't you? Didn't I see that as well. Congratulations. That's really great
Watch Joel Meyers Fake Off Finale on Tru TV
Joel Meyers: in the college market. Yeah. Pretty cool. Yeah, it was really stoked about that cause I've been in the college market for like 10 years, so it was a big honor. And it's funny cause when I started in the college market looking at all these guys and being like, I want to be like them winning the award was really cool. So yeah, I appreciate it. Ryan Joyce: Congratulations. That's awesome. Joel Meyers: Thanks man. So, yes, I was with all these guys and we're all looking at each other like with our agents watching our shows drop off and we're like, Oh my God, you know, and some of these guys, you know, guys who have kids like me and you know, we have mortgages and we were like, you know, what are we going to do? And some of the guys like, Oh, I have savings, I'll be okay for a couple of months. And then some of the guys are like, I just did a remodel on my house or whatever, you know, we weren't expecting this. Um, and so, uh, so for me, the first thing I said, we all kind of sat at a table at this conference and I said, why don't we just try and do the stuff online, like virtual chose, which I had no idea how to do. I was, I don't know how to do that. Um, and uh, you know, uh, so I was like, but this is, this could be a cool way to do it. And for somebody like me, I always just, I bet you you are this way. You seem to be this way, um, that if you don't know how to do something, you're going to figure it out and you're going to do work on until you figure it out. Ryan Joyce: There's enough passion, you'll definitely fit. You figure it out. Yeah. I'm willing to spend any amount of time as long as it, I'm really passionate about it for sure. Joel Meyers: It's so funny because even when I was in school, I got bad grades on the, on the classes I wasn't passionate about. And then the classes I was passionate about, I got good grades on. And that's what's so funny about us as artists and magicians. And I know I could say this about like spidey, you know, uh, you know, he's the kind of guy where like for awhile, you know, his YouTube channel starting to blow up. And for awhile he was like, you know, when the pandemic kid, he's like, I'm not doing anything. I'm just, you know, I'm sitting at home and I, I, I don't have the passion to do it because I'm so sad about, you know, everything that's going on. And so he has taken, he's like, I have to have the passion to be able to do it. Um, you know, I know shin Lim is like that spite. He's like best friends who was shim Lim and, and uh, you know, he talks about how whenever you don't feel passionate and he doesn't feel like you can do anything in that moment. Right. Um, so yeah, so basically, uh, I knew, I knew we had to try and still perform and performing is, you know what I do and uh, you know, I'm an entertainer and I'm an artist and I'm a performer. And number one, I'd say even before magician, magic is what I'm passionate about. It's the outlet. But before the magic, even I'm a performer and, and I've always felt like kind of has to be that way. Ryan Joyce: Agreed. Agreed. It's art when, when you put the, the showmanship first, I think that is a total appreciation for like the technical magician. Marvel, like total, like diver on, it was clearly not like a showman at nature, but he was like as a technical genius. So there's room for both and I fall in the same categories. You, I'm like a showman or performer first. Joel Meyers: Yeah, I know you, I was just going to comment on that. The, uh, the, the, I really love, people always ask me, and I'm sure people ask you this when you do interviews and stuff, people always ask me who my, you know, who your favorite magicians are, who you're inspired, you know, do you love David Blaine? And they asked the tradition that same type of questions, but I always say I'm inspired by my friends. And what's really cool about that is the people that I tend to gravitate towards gravitate towards are those people who we happen to be magicians. Magic happens to be what we're passionate about. But really, I mean, we could have done a lot of things in entertainment, a lot of things, you know, like that's why you were so good with being on camera. That's why you're, you know, you are, you're a very charismatic presence. Your voice is very, you know, commanding and, and, uh, and you've got a great personality and all these things come together. And we really could have done anything. Um,
Ryan Joyce: it's such a, it's so interesting you say that because you see in the life space world, the ones that are really succeeding in all of the live streets are the ones that have learned how to connect on camera. And that's something that magicians particularly can Excel at. Like it's something among all of the industries, like musicians and variety, or is this is the one that kind of, we've been most prepared. I mean, and it also one of the arguments I'd be curious to hear your, your thoughts on this is one of the things I've been seeing in a negative space is people saying like, you started to see some who's really rising to the top among who can really perform and who's, yeah. Joel Meyers: I've been in, I've been in that, uh, you know, that that space for, for years now where I, you know, when people meet me, they go, Oh, you're really nice guy, you know, and they, you know, and they're like, Oh, okay, he's got a great personality and all this. Uh, because, you know, I, I have seen, um, you know, when, okay, here's a good example. Uh, Justin Willman was in the college market. He was winning all these awards, uh, before, you know, before I was in it. And before he got all his big, you know, notoriety and start a message, very much deserved. Um, and, and whenever he started in the market, he would go to these NACA and APCA conferences. Um, you know, which a lot of us go to, you know, like the Edisons or are there all the time and you know, uh, you know, Peter blah and, uh, Daniel Martin and all these great Dale K. Oh yeah, dad, I love Dale and, uh, you know, all these great, great performers, magicians have just, just, uh, and when Justin started, all of these magicians were busting their asses doing, you know, finger bending, you know, finger flicking and hardcore sleight of hand and, you know, really costuming on their pattern. And Justin was booking tons of shows, right? Tons of shows with sponge bunnies, right? With sponge money. He wouldn't bring anything. He did nothing but sponge money. So when I got into the college market and my agent was the same agent who, you know, him and, and, and Justin really work together to really develop his personality, his show and all of this, you know, in his early twenties. And my, my agent, my agent was like, when I came in, he goes, listen, you're, you're a great magician. Technically you're very good technically. Cause I was showing him all this, you know, hardcore side hand in the sink. That was good. He goes, but I want to concentrate on what your personality is. You know who Joel Meyers is as a, as a, as a a, an artist and a performer and, and your personality. And uh, and that's what, you know, that's what I really realized. Uh, you know, was the most important thing really early on. And that's what, you know, you get the guys who have the most success with the guys, with the big personality. Ryan Joyce: How do people practice that? Like I asked Nick Lewin, who is a notably funny magician if, if magicians who aren't funny can learn to be funny, his response that they can be funnier. I thought that was perfect. In this case, we're asking magicians too, be more likable or more personable. How do people, how do people practice that? Joel Meyers: That's a good question. I think people being more likable or more personable, you know, uh, you know, it, that's a really hard thing to fake. Um, I think, I think you either are or you aren't in a way. Um, you know, people ask, I'm sure you get this in interviews and stuff where people say, you know, uh, were you born with this or did you develop it? You know, the ability to do magic. Um, you know, I think the aspect that I was born with, the aspect that you were born with, um, is the likability and the personality. Um, and for whatever reason being bit by the bug and showed, like we were talking about before, being passionate about it. And that makes us really go after it. But I think the actual like, know, uh, I don't think you can fake likeability. I think an audience can see through that in two seconds, whether it's an audience or of of, you know, a thousand people in a theater or three people that you're doing close-up stuff where I think they can, they could see right through that. Ryan Joyce: I agree. It feels too salesy. It's like a sales person when you, when you try to fake it. I think the best advice I've ever, we've all ever been given is just to be the most authentic. If you put something in front of it, it's a facade version of ourselves, like you're saying.
WATCH Joel Meyers & Spidey on Penn & Teller Fool Us
Joel Meyers: Yeah, definitely agree with that. Yeah. And that's harder on camera. Oh yeah. Yeah. The, the, I I tell you what man, um, I have, I've heard, and I just, I did an interview the day before yesterday, uh, and a lot of magicians were asking, you know, questions cause it was a live thing and they'd ask type the questions in and the, the, a lot of, uh, people were asking and, and talking about how they're like, you're performing at a camera, you're not performing for an audience. And magic needs an audience. Even when we do magic on television, which we know this because we've done plenty of magic on TV. When we do magic on TV, we're still have some sort of an audience, whether it's, you know, a street magic style, you still have people there, whether it's masters of illusion style where there's an audience there, uh, you know, or America's got talent or fool us, like we both done. Um, uh, you know, there's, there's an audience there. And so doing it virtually the big, the biggest thing that I'm hearing, and I'm hearing it from some of my favorites, magicians, a lot of them are old school, but there's still guys that, you know, we have mad respect when we grew up watching, uh, and they're like, you have to perform for an audience. So it's stupid to performing at a camera. And so I would say the biggest thing I'd want people to take away from the virtual platform, the biggest misconception that they're not, they're not seeing is that you are still performing to an audience. And what you do is if you do it right, you set up a couple of iPads or monitors or laptop or whatever and you can see the people. Now, the other day I did it, I did a virtual show for 350 people. So you can't see all 350 people on that. That was at Colorado school of mines. And so that was a huge one. You know, uh, tomorrow, tomorrow I'm doing Wilkes-Barre Barg university in Scranton, Pennsylvania. And that's like probably going to be like 30 people or something like that. And then yesterday, uh, uh, yesterday I did a Ohio state and that was like and people and so when there's 10 people, you could see them all on the screen. So what I do is I say, you know, right out the gate I say these are, there's two really important things I want you guys to keep in mind before we even get started. Number one, if you could turn your cameras on, I really appreciate it. If you feel comfortable to turn your cameras on, cause then that way I could see your reactions. And it's as though we were, I was performing for you guys right here in my, uh, in my home and we were right now I can see reactions. Uh, so if you feel comfortable doing that, please do that. When I do that, I see most of the cameras start to turn on. That's okay. So then, then I have an audience. So that whole debate is, is about every magician saying the virtual, there's no audience. There is an audience that they haven't really, they're saying that because they haven't done it, they don't know. Right. And then I say the second thing I say, uh, if you don't have any background noise, which this is always tough because you don't always know if you have back then I said, you don't have any background noise. You can feel free to unmute yourself. Now what I do is I generally, whoever's hosting the event, whoever's in charge of it, they're in charge of the zoom, you know, call and, uh, and so they control who's being muted and who's not. And a lot of times I can say like if it's a group of 300 people, I can't say unmute yourselves, right? Everybody's going to hear something. So I have the host person, uh, you know, on, on the call I say, um, okay, so I need somebody to help guys raise your hands and they'll put the little hand emoji in the chat and you see 10 of them, you know, popping up at one time. Okay, let's pick Laura. Uh, Laura, how you doing? Let's unmute Laura. I say it just like that. They, um, Laura, what's going on? How's it going? Oh my gosh. You look so fun. Where are you? You know, uh, what are you doing today? You having fun? Are you excited about the event? You know, I'm, I'm interacting with the people, right? So that whole debate is completely squashed right there. There was a whole blog on it about the debate about you're not performing for people in the virtual shows. Ryan Joyce: This is, if the dynamic is still there, it's still, I show this is an such a, I bet the connection level here is so much stronger. This is never going to fade away. It really is. It's, there's never going to fade away. This is like, we will still, well, what are your predictions for the future? Joel Meyers: So I work in multiple, multiple markets. I'm really scared. I was really scared at first and I, I woke up this morning to my college agent messaging me panicking, going look at these articles, talking about whether the colleges are going to come back in the fall. Oh my gosh. We might have do these virtual shows, which is the virtual shows where the price is cut in half. So we're still making money, but it's half, you know, um, what, uh, we normally make. So he's like, Oh my God. So normally we make a lot of money doing the college shows and in this he's like, Oh my God. Meanwhile my crew's agents are like, the cruises aren't going to just stop. They're going to go out. At the moment. They can't. And I do a lot of cruises as well as you do. Right. Um, so my prediction for this virtual platform is exactly what you just said is this is a new medium that is not only is it not going to go away, but even whenever the pandemic is done and whether they bring back the life theater stuff in the fall or whenever and then they go, Oh, you got to sit two seats away from each other or you know, some kind of social distancing stuff. Th this, this will still be, now this is another platform to do it. I am literally working with five different agencies right now and we're all scrambling to work on different ways of doing this. I just got a message this morning saying, Hey, there's this company, once you do 15 minutes, they want you to do, uh, the virtual stuff and then they want you to teach something at the end. Uh, but they want to know how you could do it to where it's like, you know, an HD camera kind of thing. And they're like asking all the specific stuff and can you teach a magic trick with no props? Cause they don't want him to tell him to bring cards or rubber bands or whatever. Right. You know, and they're, they're asking that kind of stuff. And I'm like, sure, I can do stuff with just your hands or your fingers or something like that. I could, sure, you know, I just say yes. Ryan Joyce: Right, right, right. Absolutely. There, there it is. Joel is best advice in the business. Just say yes to everything. And I tell you what, let Joel Meyers: me, I got calls from probably like, I swear to God, a dozen magicians and some of these guys are, are, are really, you know, creative and, and uh, you know, big names and they call me going, how the hell are you doing? Like what? Like how are you doing it? How do they pick a card? How do they, you know, and I'm like, dude, just think about it for a second. Somebody standing in front of you and you don't want him to touch your cards. How do they pick a card? Like, think about it, you know, they're not thinking outside of the box. And that's the, that's the biggest thing. I know guys like you and me. Um, you know, there's, there's enough guys who do immediately adapt to a situation and they'll think outside of the box and that's what you got to do with this.
So I'll take a trick, like for example, I never do, uh, it's a great trick, but I never do cardiographic you know, in general, I don't do it just because it's, you know, it's a little bit older and, and a, and a lot of guys do it, so I don't do it unless I could take it and make it something newer. So for example, I'll do the floating table within the concept of a seance and I did that on masters and illusion and it was completely unique cause I did it like a giant Weegee board where the table was the plant shit moving to the letters, have a name, somebody who's thinking of. So it makes it more creative. So if I could take an old concept and make it fresh and new and something that other men under magicians and other people go, wow, I've never seen that. Um, then I'll do it. But the cardiographic I was like, this might be good for the virtual stuff because, uh, I can do a drawing right in front of them. Uh, I can have them think of a card, uh, and then mess it up. And then at the end I say, you're going to DM me your address and we're going to send this drawing to you and I'm going to sign it. So you know, it's the same dry and people are like, wait, what? You know what I mean? So I'm trying to think a little bit outside of the box and how to do it. You shouldn't say Ryan Joyce: it's fun. That makes, that adds a new layer, a new challenge for magicians. I think this is going to be, our stage is here Joel Meyers: becoming some, it's really becoming something and we've got to figure out who the few a few things I'm learning from the amount of shows that I'm doing with this cause I'm booking so enough to where it's, I'm really getting an experience like I'm experiencing, you know, uh, something to where I'm getting some, uh, expertise on it. To an extent. Um, and uh, you know, something that I'm really, uh, learning about is, you know, aspects of like, do you perform with a backdrop? You know, like right now I'm doing this with my banner behind me, but like in general I prefer not to have that. I like them to see, they already know they're at my house, you know, I'm not going to fake it. Um, now in your situation you're, you, you know what you're doing with your background, everything. So it looks really good. I would do it like that. Like what you're doing looks really, really good if you can keep it in this one frame, but it depends also on what you're doing. If you need to go from one angle to another angle, like further away, down to close up and all of that, how do you do that and maintain this look? Do you know what I mean? Ryan Joyce: Yeah, for sure. And I, in my case, I wanted this, my guest is going to change every time. So I wanted mine to be always consistent. And I think that's also for people that are creating shows or something that's a longterm, that's something to think about too. That's why I always like my site. I'd prefer to say a similar backgrounds so that you guys could be whatever you want and you're spot on that Saul and you're spot on that solid background and put all the focus on you is so essential. Joel Meyers: Yeah. Doing a solid background is a really great idea. Um, I, you know, I like things like I look at again, friends of mine, like a spidey or Chris Ramsey or some of these guys and their YouTube, you know, the way they do their YouTube stuff and they're in their living room and sitting at their kitchen counter mat Franco is one of my friends and we were buddies in the college market. I don't know if you know that. Um, but uh, but we, we, you know, he, he immediately was doing stuff on the virtual platform immediately cause max a kinda guy who, he's, he's the same guy. He's always been, and he's just always been like, I just love magic. I just want to do so. He's like, you know, he's sitting at his house in Vegas and he's like, I'm just going to do magic in my kitchen, you know, for people with my closeup pad. Uh, you know, and, uh, and, and, and, you know, so he does it like that. It's very casual and he's doing virtual stuff and, um, you know, and he just streaming on Facebook. So Matt's not really, uh, you know, I'm sure he's getting, doing some paid events too, but, um, I hadn't asked him if you get paid for any of them, but right now he's just doing like Facebook streaming and that kind of thing. Um, so yeah, I mean, but that's something that you got to think about. You know, I, I like what you're saying about it being, having the background, and so it's all focused on you, but I mean, somebody's got to think about, you know, Ryan Joyce: yeah. And lighting. It would really, it's about you and the personality. OK. I'll, I'll, I'll finish off here with, I'll try to, uh, five random rapid questions. Okay. So number one name your first mentor. Joel Meyers: Uh, my first mentor probably, uh, I would say Daryl, uh, when I met him at a lecture and he, uh, helped me a lot and uh, right out the gate and then he kinda just followed up with me and made sure I was, cause I was a little kid. I was seven so he was following up with me on it. You know, you've talked to my parents and talk to me on the phone every once in a while. So Ryan Joyce: what a great mentor. Um, your most watched childhood magic, special or routine? Joel Meyers: These are good questions, man. Ryan Joyce: Like why would you, you're my age. It would be a PCR, I don't know. Yeah, I think you would be past the VCR. Joel Meyers: I did the VCR thing. Yeah. How old do you think I am, man? Ryan Joyce: Yeah. Well I'm, I'm almost, I'm 40 next year, so I would imagine you're probably like 30, 32 to 35 ish. Joel Meyers: I'm 33, but my wife's, my wife's like my wife's 26, but she looks like she's 20. So she makes me look younger when she's hanging out with me. She'll, so, yeah. So my first magic special was a world's greatest magic. And I watch that religiously. Just tapes. I'd watched David Williamson and Michael Finney and uh, and one of the coolest moments too, was later on I was doing a show in Phoenix and I look out in the audience, I'm like, I swear that guy looks like Michael Finney just sitting out in the audience. And afterwards the guy comes up to me. I'm like, Oh my God, Michael Manny. I used to watch him all the time and he told me, and he told me he was like a fan of my stuff when he seen me and all this. And I'm like, I was like bugging out. Ryan Joyce: How is that man Michael man had you known before though? It probably would have been more stressful. Uh, third question. Strangest place you've ever been asked to perform magic. Joel Meyers: Oh God, I have a few, uh, on a, uh, a moving bus. Oh yeah, that was really weird. I just stand up and performing a moving bus. Uh, of course an airplane that's happened several times on an airplane, uh, for like the whole, you know, group on the airplane. Those were kind of similar though. Um, Oh, the weirdest. Those are good answers, right. I've had some weird ones, man. Uh, the, the craziest one was in a hot air balloon cause I helped the guy proposed to his girlfriend in a hot air balloon and I had to make the ring up here in a hot air balloon, which was so weird. Cause when you think about it, they had their little romantic moment. Yeah. Ryan Joyce: I'm still in the, where am I going to go? Yeah. You're kind of like backing away. Yeah. Like I'm going to be dog. Oh my God. That's awesome. Yeah. Awkward. Yeah. Uh, okay. Uh, name of trick or routine that caused you the most embarrassment. Uh, Joel Meyers: so when I first started doing the straight jacket was the most embarrassing because there's a rhythm to the straight jacket whenever you're doing just a straight jacket. Um, when you're doing a straight jacket without any kind of, you know, a illusion or like know, like the jaws of death or something like that, when you're just on stage with the jacket and puts you in it, it took me a while to find that rhythm to where I'm like, Oh, this is a comedy. It's hilarious. And it's role laughing. Didn't like put in it alone. Just again put in it. I bought Brown thing, my heading and pretend like I'm in pain if they're like a jacket and then I couldn't get out. I was like, I want it. I want it to look on. Oh,. Ryan Joyce: That's awesome. That is awesome. Then one final word of hope or message, some optimism. Um,. Joel Meyers: So I would say, uh, you know, as magicians, you know, the old Arthur C. Clarke quote, uh, any, uh, Whoa, any, uh, Oh my gosh, any advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Right? Or he's got so many good ones. That's a gap. Absolutely. Yes. But that made me realize that we as magicians, our job is to adapt and to change with the times. And that is our job. And if you look at some of the top magicians in the world, they've all done that copper field did that each day he goes, Oh, now I got adapted this way. Now I got to use sell iPhone. You more, you know, interaction in that way. And so this is just another today. And so the virtual platform, that's our job. Our job is not job, her job, you know, you're going to, we're going to be like, we're all, we're all going to be great. This is just another way to perform, which is fantastic even when we go back to life. And to me that's. Ryan Joyce: Joel. Thanks so much for spending your time and wisdom with us. Joel Meyers: Thanks buddy. Had a great time.